Sangean HDT-1/1X audio vs. any decent FM tuner

[bnollman]

I seem to be the only person who thinks the HDT-1 (and 1X) has lousy analog audio. The audio clip attached is from 106.1 WBLI - a Top 40 station about 60 miles away that I have to phase my local on 105.9 (and it's HD that covers 106.1) to get in. With phasing I can get RDS and decent stereo audio from WBLI by tuning my Yamaha T-85 to 106.13. The Sangean HDT-1X does an excellent job of reducing adjacent slop and is tuned to 106.1. To make the Yamaha sound as bad as possible I also put it into mono.

The first 10 seconds is WBLI on the Yamaha T-85 - it's bright, maybe slightly noisy - but not muted in any way. The next 10 seconds is the muddy sound of the Sangean. Then back and forth once more.

In my opinion, when a tuner does this to an analog signal it might have less high end (and noise) but it's also hiding some of the finer details of the audio that could make the difference between being able to eek out an ID. My $0.02 FWIW. Hey, if the brighter signal is an issue, turn down the treble !

No doubt about it, the Sangean's do an amazing job of being selective and make filters unneccesary. And at $200 they are a bargain ! I also believe that they designed this tuner to have lousy analog audio so the HD would sound even better. IMHO.

BTW, if you listen to this clip and can't hear a difference then you either are listening through really bad speakers or have serious hearing loss (mine ain't great either) in which case the HDT is a GREAT sounding tuner for you !

OK, I'm done bitching and moaning about this for a while longer ;-)
Bill

[JeffK-LA]

Sounds like when I'd flip the Dolby 'C' switch on my old tape deck.

[bnollman]

exactly - I think they just opted to lop off anything about 10khz on the Sangean. hey, it makes the HD sound REALLY good too !

[Mike-CT]

Interesting! I can hear the difference in the treble.
I make a lousy audiophile.

[Russ-PA]

The difference is VERY noticeable.

For pure listening, and realizing everything you did, the high end sound on the T-85 is rather excessive, but it's non-existent on the Sangean. For listening I would prefer something in between. Whether you can do that given 105.9 is another question.

But for DX'ing, I would probably prefer the T-85 sound ( realizing that my primary is a T-80 ), because my concern would be what all of that muting would do to a female announcer's voice and also some jingles.

But since I have a T-80, I know what a Yamaha sounds like on a signal which is a little easier to work with than the first adjacent to an IBOC hissmonger. and it sounds great that way - not as much treble.

[KC5KBV]

I've had my HDT-1 (went with the cheaper version, since I didn't need the SPIF out) for three weeks.

The audio rolloff reminds me of car FM tuners that reduce the treble response to make listening to weaker stations tolerable on the fringe. But that wasn't my purpose for purchasing the HDT-1, it was DXing. Because its so selective I can hear a couple of Fayetteville AR stations in the clear (KUAF 91.3, and KEZA 107.9) most evenings, as well as Memphis' WMC 99.7 (including decoding the RDS).

Of course FM stations seem to overcompress their audio in the first place and the use of mp3 and other audio sources doesn't help. Very few stations play CDs straight even the smaller ones. KKPT 94.1 has some of the worst audio processing IMHO, and that station is hard to listen too for any amount of time (and not only for the tired classic rock).

[pluche]

Hi everyone. As a first post, I must step up to the plate and side with KC5KBV on this one. I am a long-time DXer in the Montreal area and let me tell you things a pretty difficult considering that I live exactly three miles from the antenna farm on Mount Royal.

In the past, I owned what I thought to be pretty selective receivers and when that wasn't enough, I would put a Channel Master HI Q bandpass filter to do a job on pesky intermod, mainly from a 307KW station on 96.9 (CKOI-FM).

I live up a 26-floor building and years ago, using two stacked 10-element RS Yagis, I would be fortunate enough to "sniff" the tropo weather based on how quiet costal WHEB 100.3 Portsmouth NH woul come in (218 miles). Those days were so much fun.

Now these days are gone, antennas got beaten in the wind, landlord doesn't want me to put up big panaches anymore but... I still have the DX affliction in me. And so I recently acquired the Sangean HDT1X and must say that I'm quite pleased with it, selectivity-wise. It allows me, without tweaking, filtering albeit some nulling, to listen to Rush Limbaugh on 96.7 (200Khz below the powerhouse that is 96.9).

Audio is... OK. But I can't complain because for the convenience of this receiver which makes intensive use of DSPs (you can tell by the delay in the audio when compared with a portable receiver), most Vermont stations come in. Hell with this receiver, I can tune to 91.9, listen to pseudo-jaz for a second or two from a local station to then be "treated" with the sounds of WAMC in Plattsburgh NY in IBOC. I'll try and post an audio clip of this phase-in when I get a chance.

So all in all, it's a good little deal. I have yet to get a taste of its full DX potential because as it stands, I'm operating using the supplied dipole stretched outside on a cord, awaiting a TERK HDO AM/FM outdoor contraption. I can't wait to try that out.

And to conclude, I'd like to ask anyone here if they'd heard or better yet, tried this antenna and how well does it perform. I just hope it doesn't bring in too much noise with the supplied amplifier.

Thanks for reading. Denis

[Mike-CT]

Terks are not held in very high regard. But, you might like yours.
Here's something you might be interested in doing. It's a loop for FM that has some decent gain: http://www.skywaves.info/index.php?entityType=HTML&id=139

[pluche]

OK guys. Forget I ever asked abut the Terk thing. Makes me sound like such an amateur. I got the box yesterday, took the thing out, wired it and took it outside for a spin while listening to low-power WXXX 95.5 in Burlington (which barely makes it quiet in MTL) wearing wireless HIFI headphones. Well, let's just say that this piece of aluminum does not qualify as an antenna. It's noisy like you wouldn't believe, way too small to be worth anything and about its AM capability, let's just say that it's way poorer than the plastic mold that comes with every receiver. What a rip off!

Mike THANK YOU for the loop project. This is actually the very first time I come across something that is remotely understandable. Now next weekend I'm traveling to my folks in Eastern Quebec and will take this design with me. Now dad's got a decent artillery shed and I'lll try to "wind one up". I'm in desperate need of a good AM fixture.

Now I don't have room for big Yagis anymore but do you guys think that the 6-element Wineguard FM6 is worth importing (cause I sure can't find it locally). Is it somewhat directional? Does its 5 dB typical qualify as "fringe" albeit not deep fringe. Regardless of the price difference, I'm in a toss between the FM6 and the APM-9.

Thanks from a very frustrated Pluche, whi ditched 108$ for something that he's just gonna... ditch!

By the way, it is now 9PM here and the MUF is above 88MHz. I have not experienced FM skip since the late 90s! For some odd reason, this is "energizing" (like the ionosphere) and somewhat rejuvenating as I'm curious to discover the fun of ID'ing through RDS.

[antennanut]

I have to add I bought a Terk once back in the late 80's when I was living in an apartment. I had read they really pulled in the signal, so I bought the most deluxe model they made. I took that piece of junk back the next day - a set of rabbit ears I was using totally smoked it all over the FM band.

I had a 5 element RS antenna back in the 70's and it displayed decent gain and directional abilities. I'd go for the Winegard 6 if I were you.

[Mike-CT]

There aren't too many outdoor FM antennas around anymore. The Winegard CH-6065 is discontinued but you might be able to find one around. This antenna is also known as the HD-6065 and has a good reputation. APS has the APS-9b and the APS-13. The 13 is a monster and so is the price. The 9b is shorter and has fair specs. Not sure if Antennacraft has anything decent for FM now. Or Radio Shack either.

[Michael-NJ]

Radio Shack used to have the 6-element antenna, but that's been discontinued too. You may be able to find one if you call a store directly though and have them check the storeroom. For the 29 dollar price tag it's a great antenna with decent directivity, I use one for mobile use here.

Then there’s the APS-9, which I also have for mobile use. I got the antenna thinking it would be a step up from the 6 element... Well quite frankly both perform about the same- with maybe a slight edge to the APS-9. The APS-9 while slightly larger really doesn’t pull in anything that the 6 element already can.

Then we have the APS-13... yes, it does have a higher price tag at $200, but IMHO it's worth it. There is literally no comparison between the 9 and 13. Using the APS-9 I get stations to about 200-230 miles, on a good day. Take the APS-13 though, and that number jumps to 330-370 miles. I can regularly hear stations from here in NJ on any given day from as far as New Bern to the south (330+), Winchester and a station in Bellaire, OH (330+) to the west, Buffalo in fades to the NW (300+), used to hear Syracuse to the north (93.1), and a good chunk of New England can be heard to the northeast (CT/RI/W-MA/Some Cape Cods). North-Northeast WHOM in Northern NH over 370 miles away can be heard. For the longest time, using antennas like an FM-6/APS-9 or one of the large legacy VU-210 antennas from Radio Shack WHOM was a once or maybe twice a year catch. Once I got the APS-13, it's in daily.

The caveat isn't the price so much, but rather the size. Its big, in fact it's huge... I can see how a lot of people may not have room for one. If you have the cash and the room though, I'd recommend it highly. I got one, then I convinced Nick to get one, then Jeff got one... and well, you see the logs that this antenna as produced. Rick in NWNJ has used one for a while too, in fact I think he may have an APS-14, a larger predecessor to the 13- You get what you pay for.

And since this is the HD forum... I can get Philadelphia HD's with it at 50 miles solid, Baltimore and DC show up with slight enhancement at 100-150, and Norfolk makes an appearance at 200-210 miles in HD every so often under "normal" conditions. Again with the APS-13.

[Russ-PA]

I've had an APS-9b for about 4 years now, it replaced an old TV-FM yagi. I couldn't go with the APS-13 on account of room, but also I have the 9b mounted at about 15' up inside the loft over my attached garage. This was done intentionally because I am only 7-8 miles from many of the local FM's and I was getting too much intermod and mixing products when I test mounted it on the mast "up top" where it was at about 35'. ( Plus I don't have to worry about weather problems ! ). Because of the close locals, and either translators or IBOC hiss on so many channels, my typical maximum distance is usually only about 150 miles. If I had the room and were another 15-20 miles from most of the locals, I'd have gone with the APS-13 on the mast.

[pluche]

Thanks for everyone's post. All so informative. Michael-NJ, a little chill ran through me when I read that you could get WHOM all the way to NJ. Just so you guys know, I could once get that station on the southern Gaspe Coast, 90 miles due north of the US Maine Border, that was before a local community station took over 94.9. WHOM used to be such a good soft-and-easy station, too bad it got so lame.

Anyway, I found a US store (Solid Signal) that takes canadian orders. So I'm ordering an FM6 tomorrow (the 16th) in the hope of experiencing some E-skip and late-summer tropo before it all dies out in the Montreal area.

In closing, last night, I got home from a two-week vacation down east to be treated to super tropo night. And with the HD1X I was able to grab a few IBOC from central New-York state with the stock antenna alone. Can't wait to try an FM6 with this Sangean. Then I hope to have something really worth while to brag about. I'll be satisfied just as long as this FM6 brings back beacon station WHEB 100.3.

Have a pleasent weekend everyone.