DX TV/FM from indoors?

[cpldc]

Hello,

I'm new to DX'ing, more or less. I remember my dad noticing some openings and watching/hearing distant TV/radio when I was a kid and knew of the possibility since then but haven't investigated it until recently. I find it really interesting and am wondering what I should buy, if anything, to improve my chance of DX TV catches.

The thing is, I haven't really caught anything at home. I got some tropo FM in my car on Sunday, my first FM loggings, and I once got an analog UHF channel (29) from Philadelphia, about 250 miles away, early one morning. But despite frequently monitoring sites like DXers.info and the Hepburn forecasts and checking when things look probable I haven't been able to get anything on TV since that UHF channel in February.

I'm assuming the answer to "should I get an outdoor antenna for VHF" is "yes," for obvious reasons, but do folks have any luck with just rabbit ears and other indoor antenna types? Should I just be monitoring the bands more often? Channels 2 and 3 are not used here (Wash. DC) so that's what I've been monitoring, but again, no luck.

I've been seeing lots of loggings via e-skip on the 'net lately so I'm assuming the "season" has started.

Please pardon any ignorance on my part! I know a decent amount about antennas and RF, and am getting ready to take the exam for a ham license but I'm still in the learning stages overall.

Thanks.
-Claudio

[NN2E]

Hi Claudio,
And welcome to TV/FM DXing.
The answer to your main question is, yes, you can do quite a bit of E-skip DXing with just a set of rabbit ears. I'm in western Kentucky and have seen Mexican E-skip with the set-top rabbit ears. I've also used a simple vertical dipole with good results.
73, Ed NN2E

[cpldc]

Well that's great news--thanks. I'll have to keep looking then now that things are in swing. I have some 300 ohm wire I found at the local Radio Shack that I might turn into a ch. 2 folded dipole.

I guess vertical works because the polarization of bounced signals isn't predictable, correct?

[Jim Thomas]

Claudio,

Please keep in mind with the impending DTV transition, this will be your final year to dx analog signals that originate in the US. Next year, with the analog tv channels open to other areas, you will have opportunities to dx both Canada and Mexico on all of the channels.

If you're interested in DTV dx (the NEW dx), you'll need to get an outside antenna. Ninety percent of people looking for DTV signals require an outdoor antenna. You can browse this forum for other threads that discuss that.

You also can go the WTFDA's OFFICIAL website and read over various dxing and equipment articles that are available to the public....

http://www.wtfda.org/

Welcome to the WTFDA Forum and I hope you enjoy your 2008 dx season.

[Michael-NJ]

Claudio, as the others here have said, welcome to the forum and TV/FM Dxing!

As Jim mentioned, even though analog will be coming to an end in the US there will still be opportunities to catch Canadian, Cuban, Mexican, and possibly beyond for a while more using just a small indoor antenna. DTV E-Skip is much tougher.

Now for FM, you're still good to go. IBOC (Sidebands from HD radio which covers open frequencies) is a problem in the DC area, though some frequencies should be open- especially depending on how far you are from the transmitters. An outdoor antenna will pull in the most, though if you don’t have the room even rabbit ears will work in the strong openings and produce logs. I worked an opening a few weeks ago using just rabbit ears and still got a decent amount of stations. If you have space indoors then setting up an antenna inside can work as well, whether its just on a temporary basis, or sticking one in an attic- Many do pretty well using this method too. Trop is a similar story; rabbit ears will work ok to a degree in strong openings but to really get anything far you need some type of Yagi mentioned above. Trop was pretty active this morning, you probably had stations from my area this morning- most DC stations were solid until around noon today.

Here is a recent thread discussing some of the Yagi type antennas I mentioned above (an APS13 would not fit inside most houses though ;))- While an APS9B (for size comparison) fits on a Queen size bed. http://www.wtfda.info/showthread.php?t=1711
Any other questions, feel free to ask- it’s nice to see another poster from the area.

[cpldc]

Thanks, Jim. I am a bit disappointed that I got into the hobby so soon before the analog shutdown, but hopefully I can get something this summer or, as you say, get Canadian or Mexico stations.

In any case, I have an HDTV with a Samsung tuner and a standard TV with an Insignia DXA1 tuner so I should be good for DTV DX once I get an antenna outdoors. I think I'll get something small that I can keep in place for my local stations which are in the same direction and strong, and a second, bigger antenna for DX'ing. My house has no coaxial or other TV wiring of any sort inside or out, so I might as well run two or three in while installing.

Likely contenders for antennas are the new Winegard HD1080 (similar to the CM4220 plus two elements for high VHF) for the locals and the XG91 on a rotator for DX'ing. Do you use a pre-amplifier for your DTV DX setup?

Edit: thanks Michael, I missed your post while writing the first. My house is very tiny so I think it rules out a lot of antennas for low VHF and FM, indoors or out. I'm using a variety of UHF antennas indoors--CM4220, single UHF bowtie, "Silver Sensor" and a homemade LPDA and all work well for the local stations and for the Baltimore digital stations which I get via a reflection somewhere to the south (should be NE of here but south is what works). I now wish I'd checked this morning but I didn't have the time before work.

Thanks, everyone.

[cpldc]

Here's what I have so far, if it helps:

- aforementioned antennas: CM4220, CM4221, Zenith Silver Sensor (unamplified), UHF bowtie, homemade UHF LPDA, two types of rabbit ears
- amps: CM7777, Winegard HDP-269 - both seem to overload a bit but it might be my TV
- tuners: whatever's built into my 13" TV for analog (not very good, it seems) plus the Insignia DTV converter. The rest isn't too useful for DX: Samsung DTB-260 tuner on my HD set, Pinnacle "TV For Mac" tuner. For FM I only have the Degen DE1103 radio, which doesn't seem to use the external antenna jack when on FM.
- baluns, cables, etc.

Can't wait to get more stuff :-)

[NN2E]

The reason I mentioned using a vertical antenna was because I used to use a vertical dipole, cut for channel 2, to do E-skip DXing. You don't have to worry about turning the antenna since it receives signals from all directions.

FWIW... As I type this the little black & white portable TV (with only one rabbit ear antenna, sitting on the coffee table, about 5 feet above ground level) is parked on channel 2, and is taking turns at speaking English, French and Spanish. Yes, you can get E-skip on an indoor antenna.

73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[cpldc]

Thanks, everyone. I am happy to say I finally got a rooftop antenna installed, and though it is a new high-VHF and UHF combo antenna and thus not suited for lowband and FM Es I have received several stations (TV) so far in the past few days. There's no sign of DX indoors at my house but this rooftop antenna is enough to catch things on channels 2 and 3, and hopefully once the Sony XDR radio I ordered arrives I should be able to use it for FM DX on the very few clear frequencies here.

The antenna model is the Winegard HD-1080 which I am using for my regular TV/DTV viewing. It's nice that it's worked out for DX as well. It's pointed straight at the DC towers 6 miles away which eliminates Baltimore TV/FM stations so that I can get -some- clear frequencies here.

And FWIW I am right now at my parents' house in NW Maryland, about 65 miles from DC and logged 7 TV stations with a B&W 5" TV. I caught KFDX, 1218mi away, with just its built-in whip. My dad had said about an hour earlier he had never gotten TV DX, only FM DX (I'm guessing tropo by the distance, this was long ago in Brazil), but the second I turned on the TV I got KSNW much to both of our surprises. That was fun.

[CasualOTAer]

Hey CPLDC,

I'm about 30mi SE of DC, and I've been casually checking for DTV DX with an indoor 2-bay UHF antenna feeding a Zenith DTT901 converter box. The antenna is pointed out a window looking approximately ENE.

A couple of mornings ago, I set a new personal best for DX with this modest setup. WLNY midway out Long Island. About 245 miles. A day before I caught WMBC in Newton, NJ, but that's less than 200 miles. I've only had this converter for about two weeks or so, and only check for DX every few mornings. Many mornings I'm able to watch most or all of the Philadelphia stations, and lately one from Reading, PA. Those are getting to be old hat for me now. 120 miles seems relatively nearby.

These distances are pretty modest compared to some analog VHF Es DX, but the cool thing about these UHF ATSC catches is that you get perfect picture and sound while the tropospheric enhancement lasts. Just as if it were only 10 miles away...

So, yeah, there is some DX fun to be had with indoor antennas, and with the new DTV, the resulting reception can be beautiful. Now that you have an outdoor antenna, you could try your hand pointing it up to the NE (and elsewhere) to see what it'll bring in.

I'm finding the Zenith box's manual tuning feature convenient for DX checking.
With it, you can step through the RF channels and quickly see which show DTV signals. If it's ch number is grayed out, that means it's not been added to the unit's channel list yet. Then you can tweak your antenna to see if you can bring it up to watchable levels.

So far, no VHF DTV DX yet for me (low or high range), but my antenna is really UHF only, so that's not terribly surprising.

[aaronibus62]

Hey, Cpldc, Casual and everyone --

Thank God Es can be received with rabbit ears!
I live, because of my wife being handicapped, on the first floor of an apartment building. As a result, there's no possibility of getting an antenna of any kind on the roof.
Aside from the lack of roof access, a job and my wife limit my DX time substantially.
Since getting back into FM DXing this month, I had great Es reception on 7/9 like others here, and good tropo to Maine/NH on the following Sunday morning. I'm gonna be grateful for whatever I can get :)

Hopefully I can find ways to get better reception (and move my Sony XDR HD into my study, aka, the room we're using as storage (:banghead:)

[NN2E]

Just logged...
KMCI 38 Lawrence, Ks. 400 mi.
KPXE 50 KC, Mo. 375 mi.
KSMO 62 KC, Mo.
...using indoor Rad-Shack V/U combo antenna, pointed through the second floor window, fixed on Cape Girardeau, Mo. (300 degree beam heading), about 20 ft above ground level. Big antennas are down (Bummer!) while I'm working on the new tower.
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[NN2E]

Just logged... KTBU-DT 42 (55) Conroe, TX. 600 mi... using the same indoor antenna and beam heading mentioned in last post.
DTV # 173
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds