DTV Es!, KNOP-2

[w9wi]

Left the Insignia box on channel 2 overnight- and we actually went a day without thunderstorms to knock the power out...

Got home, turned the TV back on - and found "KNOP-DT" on the box!

[NN2E]

Cool.
I've had the DTV box sitting on channel 2 for months and I've gotten squat, zip, nada, nothing, zero, goose egg, naught, etc.
Thunderstorms?....Now you know what it's like to live here.
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[Al Tobia]

OK on KNOP it was my first DTV E-skip too without even being near the TV. I also have INSIGNIA DTV box and caught KNOP's PSIP.

Al ( northern CA )

[spunker88]

Converter boxes will just keep scanning a DTV channel if left on them. I need to get one of them, b/c my TV with an integrated Digital tuner will go to analog when it cant get a DTV signal. Kind of takes the fun out of DXing unless its analog.

[swampman]

Never used a converter box for DXing. Is the Insignia considered a pretty good DXing tool? How does one scan during Es with these boxes? Do you just put it on channel 2 then hit a scan button? Thanks.

[pjdyer]

When hunting for Es with the DTT901 I just leave it on the most-likely channel (based on my FT-847 detecting the 54.310, 60.310, or 66.310-MHz DTV pilot - about 10% of the station's ERP is there). If multiple channels are in, then I have to cycle thru them manually - and hope that I hit one at the right time for a decode. Having KCWX-DT-5 at 23kw 50 mi north and a local NTSC KFLZ-CA-6 (FT-847 doesn't tune into Ch 5/6) are problematic.

Of course, for those who can afford it, a dedicated CECB (and dedicated monitors, VCRs/DVRs) set on each "empty" lo-VHF channel would greatly increase their chances of getting an Es ident.

73, Pat - WA5IYX

[swampman]

[QUOTE]When hunting for Es with the DTT901 I just leave it on the most-likely channel (based on my FT-847 detecting the 54.310, 60.310, or 66.310-MHz DTV pilot - about 10% of the station's ERP is there).

So you just put in on a particular channel and thats it? I assume you have to initiate a scan feature? I've read where alot of DXers find Es on channel 2. Can you scan only that channel? Sorry for the questions but I'm not at all familiar with the DTV converter boxes or how they actually work in DXing. :o

[pjdyer]

With the limited number of Converter Boxes that I've had experience with when you scan it goes from Ch 2 thru 69 looking for any DT stations strong enough to decode and then puts each of them (and their subchannels) into memory. Depending on the model, you can then access them directly by their real channel or virtual channel or go up/down by their virtual channel. Some models (the best for DXing) permit you to access any real (RF) channel directly. For DXing, it's best not to have ANY channels in a scanned memory since, for example, here KCWX-DT-5 will map as 2 and pressing 2 will take you to them. The DTT901 (and possibly others) permits you to store or unstore channels into the memory (DTV channel present or not) from a menu feature. Here I have Ch 2,3,4,6 in that way (since going up/down easier than looking for and pressing the channel number each time). I also keep the locals in whose real=virtual (9,10,12,26,41).

73, Pat - WA5IYX

[Danny]

Mike, WTFDAers love questions. When a DXer thinks he/she knows everything, his/her knowledge will become outdated. We have some guys in WTFDA who are experts on DTV DXing: Greg Barker, Steve Rich, and Jeff Kadet are in that group.

It is easy to receive Es on the Insignia/Zenith boxes and the old RCA ATSC11 box. Simply put the box on any channel (in manual tuning mode on the Insignia/Zenith) and wait. You can also move from channel to channel in search of skip. The box grabs the data and video. You press the add button to retain data. In unattended DXing, the ID will be retained if you don't change channels or turn the box off before adding the channel. It is easier on the ATSC11, but it runs hot, is big, does not have analog pass-through, and uses a fourth generation chip. (The new CECBs have sixth generation chips.)

Es has been received on all low-band channels by DXers. In fact, I have received WPVI-DT6 a number of times. My Es DTV log is now up to eleven.

[swampman]

The DTT901 (and possibly others) permits you to store or unstore channels into the memory (DTV channel present or not) from a menu feature. Here I have Ch 2,3,4,6 in that way (since going up/down easier than looking for and pressing the channel number each time). I also keep the locals in whose real=virtual (9,10,12,26,41).

73, Pat - WA5IYX

That is a nice feature Pat.

[swampman]

[QUOTE]Mike, WTFDAers love questions. When a DXer thinks he/she knows everything, his/her knowledge will become outdated. We have some guys in WTFDA who are experts on DTV DXing: Greg Barker, Steve Rich, and Jeff Kadet are in that group.

Appreciate that Danny. I've been into different hobbies through the years, but never this one. And I think it will get even better when I have a better understanding of how it works. But I learn pretty fast. :)


It is easy to receive Es on the Insignia/Zenith boxes and the old RCA ATSC11 box. Simply put the box on any channel (in manual tuning mode on the Insignia/Zenith) and wait.

Which of these would be considered the better one?


(The new CECBs have sixth generation chips.)

Would the Insignia/Zenith boxes have the newer chip?

I guess I'm a bit surprised nobody seems to use DVRs for DXing. In the little experience I've had using my TivoHD, it makes grabbing those screen shots SO easy...and in HD when available. A channel comes in and I can freeze the pic or if the signal goes before I can get that screenshot, I can rewind back to where it was. But anyway, maybe its possible these DTV boxes do a better job in actually bringing in Es? Dunno.

But thanks for the info. Now I understand how they work. :) You guys are great!

[pjdyer]

In the mid-80's (after seeing the VHS tapes that the host of the WTFDA Convention in New Olreans had made) I thought that a VCR was a panacea for TV DXing. After getting the Emerson 872 in Mar 1987 I found a few problems, notably (1) a 7-second delay in it starting to record after told so, (2) couldn't change channels w/o stopping and restarting it, (3) it was more fussy about sync levels to keep a stable picture.

Nonetheless, some good DX was taped, these being a few freeze-frame 35-mm SLR screen shots made long after the DX itself
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/870819.jpg (Jul 9, 1987)
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/871910.jpg (Jul 13, 1987)
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/900324.jpg (May 28, 1990 - 0331 CST)
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/871909.jpg (Jul 13, 1987)
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/900323.jpg (KETG, Ch 9, AR - June 6, 1990)

By Jan 1993 another VCR was obtained (problems with the Emerson tape deck), but it had that dreaded bluescreen when the signal wasn't perfect from its tuner so A/V lines were run into it from the Emerson - now I could change channels while the tape in the new machine kept running.

A later replacement VCR in Oct 2001 was found to be less suitable for taping DX from any source. However, in Aug 1994 I'd gotten an 8-mm camcorder. That was used in later years to tape the screen of a 5" b&w "monitor" (cheap TV with A/V inputs) since the result wasn't affected by the sig quality or sync issues of the DX.

With DTV there's no recording (VCR/DVR) problem with fading and loss of sync - if the video isn't near-perfect you simply get none.

73, Pat - WA5IYX

[cd637299]

Recording TV DX can be a whole new thread. Imagine my dismay when I bought my first DVD recorder in 2005, then tried to dub my TV DX onto DVD. Bottom line: ya just can't replicate it.

As I'm still getting analog TV DX, I have little choice but to still keep VHS tapes around.

cd

[Mike-CT]

Screenshots.....

I take the audio/video output from the DTV box and feed it to the A/V input on the Win TV card. Then, instead of watching the TV, I watch the monitor and when a picture shows up in the TV card interface, just one click of a mouse captures it. I can let as many screenshots accumulate as I want and then just save them as .jpg files.
It's a very quick and easy way to get nice looking screenshots.
If you had one of those Hauppauge USB DTV cards you could do the same. Best Buy had one on sale a few weeks ago for $70. Works much better than trying to take a picture with a digital camera.

[cd637299]

Well, in my case, I was referring to TV DX in motion. I have snapped one TV DX frame "live" on the Win TV, but it came out very grainy. Also, I have been on the road TV DXing, so the Win is out.

I kinda miss my old Snappy for these still-frames, but, at least the Win snaps right when you hit it. For some reason, with the Snappy there was about a 3 sec. delay.

To be honest, I have not used the Win for live TV DX for quite a while....but if I remember to do so next time, I'll try it. I have a laptop.

cd

[antennanut]

Recording TV DX can be a whole new thread. Imagine my dismay when I bought my first DVD recorder in 2005, then tried to dub my TV DX onto DVD. Bottom line: ya just can't replicate it.

As I'm still getting analog TV DX, I have little choice but to still keep VHS tapes around.

cd

Chris,

Why wouldn't the DVD recorder record DX?

[cd637299]

For some reason, the data just could not keep up with the wildness. If you go to my YouTube page www.youtube.com/cd637299 , I have 5 or 6 examples of TV DX in motion. What I had to do, was keep my DX on VHS, and use my digital camera *with motion* to film it. I haven't learned how to use the "record" feature of the Win properly.

When I first bought it, I was frustrated about the thing not dubbing. What I did, was that I sent the VCR/DVD Rec back to the manufacturer, along with the tape I wanted dubbed onto DVD. Even the manuf. couldn't do it.

It's an LG recorder, FWIW. I really doubt that another brand would copy better.

cd

[Danny]

The Insignia and Zenith boxes are a little better than the old ATSC11 at grabbing and holding weak signals. They do have the sixth generation chip, as do all CECBs. Unfortunately, all of the boxes are out of production. Check ebay.

All I've ever used for DX is converter boxes, so I can't say anything about digital TVs, etc.

[Danny]

Chris,

Why wouldn't the DVD recorder record DX?


In addition to what Chris said, there were plenty of *VCRs* built over the years that could not record DX well. Signals with a lot of CCI and Es jerks are especially difficult to record.

[cd637299]

What about KNOP-2? :)

Yes, what Danny said is true as well. My best TV DX VCR is an old 1990 Sharp table model. When I'm in the Keys, now that I found electricity, in theory, I could bring the Sharp, but (a) I'd need more outlets, considering I bring the whole stereo system with the Sony, and (b) I'd cram that SUV of mine too much....so I just use the built-in VCR on my Funai for the trips......however....when putting the same tape as was in the Funai into the Sharp, then trying to grab an image on the Win, ooooh Nellie. It's like trying to grab a slippery fish in your hands.

Anyway, I make do.

Now to try *my* hand at DTV DXing....I'll have to wait until 2010, I s'pose.

cd

[swampman]

[QUOTE]It is easy to receive Es on the Insignia/Zenith boxes and the old RCA ATSC11 box. Simply put the box on any channel (in manual tuning mode on the Insignia/Zenith) and wait. You can also move from channel to channel in search of skip. The box grabs the data and video. You press the add button to retain data. In unattended DXing, the ID will be retained if you don't change channels or turn the box off before adding the channel. It is easier on the ATSC11, but it runs hot, is big, does not have analog pass-through, and uses a fourth generation chip. (The new CECBs have sixth generation chips.)

OK I just got a Zenith box and when I went into manual tuning, put in on RF 2, then pressed inter(I assume it started scanning as it didnt really "indicate" scanning. About 1 minute late it went to a black screen with a "no signal"... sort of in sceen saver mode(floating around.) Is that normal?

[Mike-CT]

Yes, The manual tuning screen only stays there for 60 seconds. You have to keep pressing the round ok (or enter, whatever) button at least every 60 seconds to keep it visible or it disappears and you get the black screen with the NO Signal mesage floating around the screen. I wish that 60 second timeout could be defeated some way.

[swampman]

Yes, The manual tuning screen only stays there for 60 seconds. You have to keep pressing the round ok (or enter, whatever) button at least every 60 seconds to keep it visible or it disappears and you get the black screen with the NO Signal mesage floating around the screen. I wish that 60 second timeout could be defeated some way.

Yeah that's a bit annoying. It's almost like it goes into a sceen saver mode. But bottom line from what I've read from others that use it, you basically can just leave it on overnight or whatever, and if it picked up something it will show. Is there much Es going on right now? Dont hear alot of talk about it. I wish there was a site for e skip like this one http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na
Thanks Mike.