New Member with DTV questions

[Erickson54]

Hi
I live in Webster Wisconsin (USA). I am considered as a deep fringe area at 70 miles from the transmit tower. The landscape is trees and more trees. Very little for buildings or hills, no mountains. I was told by the resident local TV antenna expert that we would not get reception where we are. I did not agree and started to do some home work. My story will start with my set up soon. Just added a little back ground. I have used a internet site called http://www.tvfool.com/ and has provided good channel info. More later with my equipment then my issues.

Regards
John;)

[Mike-CT]

Welcome to the WTFDA forums, John. Consistent DTV reception at 70 miles is rough. It's easier to do it in summer with some tropo enhancement than in winter with none. I'll be waiting to read how you accomplish it.

[cd637299]

Welcome. I use TV Fool as well. Best thing about it is that it tells me where to orient my antenna!

Hopefuly you may be able to, um, "trim" some of those trees! A good outdoor antenna does wonders.

www.solidsignal.com , based in Detroit I think, is a very good start. The staff have been very helpful to me. I ended up purchasing the Channel master CM 3020, not bad for a sub-$100 antenna!

cd

[spunker88]

Welcome to the site!

For Webster, WI it looks like there are a few local LP translators near. There is W24CL, which is owned by WHWC, a PBS affiliate. Then there is W57AS which is owned by KSTP, an ABC affiliate. These are both digital and should be easier for you to draw in since they are near.

The other full powered stations look to be 60-70 miles away. Looks like you are smack dab between the twin cities stations and the Duluth stations. You are going to want a good outdoor antenna, possibly a rotor since Im not sure which market will prove better reception since they are both about the same distance from Webster.

[Jim1348]

How high are you planning on putting the antenna? Also, would you go with a rotor or twin antennas, with one pointed at Shoreview and one at Duluth? I grew up in Moose Lake and that is what I did at my parents place. I kind of worried about a rotor and when I worked the economics of it, I ended up just adding a second antenna without having to use a rotor. It worked out great for us. I guess the other thing that bears repeating at the risl of pointing out the obvious, in addition to great antennas, good antenna heights, and low noise amplifier, make absolutely sure that you have very good low loss feedline. I am thinking RG11 coaxial cable, but others may feel differently.

[Erickson54]

Welcome to the WTFDA forums, John. Consistent DTV reception at 70 miles is rough. It's easier to do it in summer with some tropo enhancement than in winter with none. I'll be waiting to read how you accomplish it.

Hi Mike and guys, Well here it goes. 1st of all I have a roof height of 20' and a mast height of 16'. I have been doing alot of research on equipment. I have a Televes Dat75 UHF only antenna and a Antenna Craft YD 10 element 7-13 yagi VHF only antenna, two separate antennas. I have the UHF mounted on the very top of the mast 36' high with the center beam (of the three) horizontal. This antenna allows for tilt if desired. Not sure this is correct and should tilt up 3-5 degrees. I have I believe one of the best mast premaps made and built in the UK. It is a Research Comms UHF only preamp with a weather proof neoprene seal enclosure. I have this connected with customer orderd Belden BN 9011 coax RG11 cable to my power supply in my attic. The VHF is mounted 5 feet below the UHF. The VHF only is preamp'd with a CM777 and RG6 Coax. All my connections are wrapped with Tandy weather tape. Working the numbers from TVfool website my best signal strength is from the Shoreview Minnesota towers. I also have more trees in the signal path to Duluth MN. The azimuth on the towers I want to obtain a signal are very close in proximity and do not have a rotor. I can provide transmit signal strength if necessary and tower heights. Lets start with the equipment I have and then I will get into my performance. I was told by the local resident TV specislists that I would not get TV....I beg to differ! I am bound to figure this out and do the very best I can.... I am very close. I believe the only thing I can do now is go higher. I cannot cut down my neighbors trees;)

[Jim1348]

Have you given much thought to getting a tower? I have given a URL below to Rohn, not that they are your only choice, but they are a pretty well known tower company. They also have telescoping masts as high a 50 feet. Obviously proper guying is critical with many of these masts. I am not sure how much money you are willing to spend, but if you keep you eyes and ears open you can find towers for sale used. Sometimes for free if you come and get them. If you have any connection with the amateur radio community, perhaps you can tune into the local 2 meter swap nets where they often have used towers for sale. I haven't listened for quite some time, but in the past if you were in the metro area you could catch it Saturdays at 0930 on 146.760 and Sundays at 1900 on 146.850. Even if you aren't a ham, but have an inexpensive scanner, you can tune in. People give their phone numbers so you can call and get additional details. Craigslist could be another option. There is a hamfest in Buffalo MN coming up soon. There is often towers for sale there both new and used. There is also mention of the other forum listed that for every 10 foot increase in height, the signal strength doubles. I do seem to recall a rule of thumb about 10 foot increases, hopefully that is correct. As you learn more about this topic, the three things that you can do are pretty much:

-increase antenna height

-amplifier

-better antenna (higher gain/low loss feedline like RG-11)

I also seem to recall some ham radio operators running twin (or multiple) antennas.

Also, have you ran across anybody else in your area with a TV antenna or a tower? While they could still have antennas up from pre-ATSC days, it might be worth stopping and talking to them to compare notes.

Amateur radio operators are pretty easy to locate. Simply go to http://www.qrz.com/ Enter the Webster WI ZIP, which is 54893. Then you get a short list of amateur radio operators in your area. Chances are pretty good that if you talk to a ham or two in the area, they will know if what you are trying to do is feasible. Some hams aren't always real active in the hobby, but it may be worth a try.






http://www.rohnnet.com/

http://www.k0ltc.org/

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/159568-tv-antenna-remote-area.html

[Danny]

There is also mention of the other forum listed that for every 10 foot increase in height, the signal strength doubles. I do seem to recall a rule of thumb about 10 foot increases, hopefully that is correct.

Are those numbers accurate for every location? That much gain seems too high.

As for the antennas, I'm no expert, but the DAT75 used to have a good reputation. Steve Rich and Greg Barker know a lot more about European antennas than most of us, and I wouldn't buy one without asking them first.

[Erickson54]

Hi Jim, thanks for the info on the Ham Radio operators. Televes is rated very high.
http://www.ultrasatellite.com/ I am wondering if I go up 10 more feet on my roof and add guy wires if this would be just enough. What do you think of my equipment so far?
Also this is the company that makes my preamp, very low noise and high gain numbers.
http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

John

[Jim1348]

There is probably no way to tell for sure until you try it.

[Erickson54]

Jim

If I purchased another UHF antenna and pointed it at Duluth, leaving one current antenna pointed to the TC's do you combine the two coax into a combiner pulling in a signal from either location?

John

[Jim1348]

When I did it back then I had 300-ohm flat twin-lead cable which. of course, has been largely replaced with 75 ohm coaxial cable feedlines. I would try a combiner that will allow mixing of multiple antennas onto a single cable. That way it should be repetitively seamless in terms of tuning. For example, you should be able to tune the virtual channel 2s from Shoreview, then the 3s from Duluth, 4 and 5s from Shoreview, 6s from Duluth, etc. I think that would work pretty slick.

[Jim Thomas]

John,

That is exactly what you would do. HOWEVER.....you have to take something into consideration with regard to wavelengths or something is going to *cancel something out* and things are not going to work as you planned.

I live 40 miles north of Denver and about 50 miles south of Cheyenne, WY. The majority of the Denver stations are west of Denver in the foothills (Lookout Mountain is the main antenna farm), while Cheyenne has two stations (a CBS affiliate and a FOX affiliate) with their antennas to the west of Cheyenne. Its not really important to have the Cheyenne stations other than many times for sports programming, the Cheyenne stations will show something different than the Denver CBS and FOX affiliates.

I have a Channel Master 4228 (an 8 bay) for reception of the Denver stations. I use a Winegard HD9032 (a UHF yagi) for the Cheyenne stations. The Cheyenne stations broadcast on RF 27 and 30. The lowest channel for the Denver stations is RF 7. When I first put the two antennas together on the same mast and just hooked them up to a combiner and ran it in on one *homerun* coax line, it wouldn't work. I had the hardest time getting the Cheyenne stations to decode. I then learned that you have to create a balanced combiner with coax and THEN join it with a combiner (splitter in reverse) and a single run into the house. For my situation, I had to calculate the half wave for RF 7 (my lowest channel I receive). Since both antennas are on the same mast, I had to space them the half wave distance apart, which calculated roughly to 32".

THEN, I made up two equal pieces of coax for the half wave (again, about 32" for each piece) with connectors on each end. One connects to each antenna, then joins at a combiner mounted with electrical tape to the mast. Finally, a single coax line feeds the antennas signals to the distribution panel in the basement. This fixed the problem I was having with the Cheyenne stations.

We just had another DTV sign on (an RTV affiliate, RF 23), which is about 60 miles to the east. Neither of the antennas would pull in enough signal for the TV's to decode that channel's signal. On the other end of the house, I have another Winegard yagi with an FM antenna @ 25' with a rotator. That coax also feeds into the basement distribution panel. Curiously, I connected the cable to the main distribution box (so that two antenna lines are connected IN), with up to six OUTS for TV's. With this setup I am using five OUTs. Then, I turned the rotator so that the antenna is EAST. I was really curious if I would lose signals with this complex setup. Much to my surprise, although some of the signals dropped in strength, I didn't lose any channels and gained one. With this current setup, I am receiving DTV channels from three separate directions, and all three directions are NOT at equal distances.

One thing to remember when joining antennas for different directions and the distances to the towers is not equal - you will most likely have signals that are out of phase and can cause problems. This is partly why I had to build a balanced combiner with equal coax lengths.

[SlcDX]

I'm jealous of your setup Jim. I have always dreamed of a DXshack with at least 3 antennas on the roof. I hope one day to achieve that. By then DTV may or may not exist :(.

[mp11]

[QUOTE]As for the antennas, I'm no expert, but the DAT75 used to have a good reputation.

Danny is that anything like the WHO DAT75? Sorry it was hard to lay off that one. :D

Go Saints!!!!!!!!!!!

[mp11]

I'm jealous of your setup Jim. I have always dreamed of a DXshack with at least 3 antennas on the roof. I hope one day to achieve that. By then DTV may or may not exist :(.

My dream setup...a 30' Rohn tower. My wife feels differently however. :(

[Boško Igić]

[QUOTE=Danny;11127]



Danny is that anything like the WHO DAT75? Sorry it was hard to lay off that one. :D

Go Saints!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy antennas for parts of UHF band and be happy!
One for 14-35, one for 35-56 and one for 56-69.
And for VHF band: one for 2-6 and one for 7-13.

[Erickson54]

Hi, I have two UHF channels I want to receive, 32 and 35. I have a DAT75 and when the snow melts I am going to tilt it up in increments of 5degs to see what improvements I get.

John




[QUOTE=mp11;11234]

Buy antennas for parts of UHF band and be happy!
One for 14-35, one for 35-56 and one for 56-69.
And for VHF band: one for 2-6 and one for 7-13.

[Erickson54]

Jim, thanks for the great info. Does a mast ground do anything for increased UHF reception? I was told to make sure I ground the mast for my pre-amp (research comms). A different person said a earth ground would help with reception?? ~john

[Erickson54]

Jim, where are most people buying good combiners that allow proper mixing? I have two UHF channels I want to receive, 32 and 35. Not sure you saw my question posted on grounding the mast?
~john



When I did it back then I had 300-ohm flat twin-lead cable which. of course, has been largely replaced with 75 ohm coaxial cable feedlines. I would try a combiner that will allow mixing of multiple antennas onto a single cable. That way it should be repetitively seamless in terms of tuning. For example, you should be able to tune the virtual channel 2s from Shoreview, then the 3s from Duluth, 4 and 5s from Shoreview, 6s from Duluth, etc. I think that would work pretty slick.

[Boško Igić]

Hi, I have two UHF channels I want to receive, 32 and 35. I have a DAT75 and when the snow melts I am going to tilt it up in increments of 5degs to see what improvements I get.

John


Then buy antenna for "your" part of the band. A good antenna for you can be 16-bay X-antenna for that band.

[Erickson54]

How high are you planning on putting the antenna? Also, would you go with a rotor or twin antennas, with one pointed at Shoreview and one at Duluth? I grew up in Moose Lake and that is what I did at my parents place. I kind of worried about a rotor and when I worked the economics of it, I ended up just adding a second antenna without having to use a rotor. It worked out great for us. I guess the other thing that bears repeating at the risl of pointing out the obvious, in addition to great antennas, good antenna heights, and low noise amplifier, make absolutely sure that you have very good low loss feedline. I am thinking RG11 coaxial cable, but others may feel differently.

Jim, do you know any Huhta's from Moose lake?

[Jim1348]

Boy, it has been years, but maybe a Karen was one year either side of me. I graduated High School in 1978, so possibly she was a graduate in 1977 or 1979, but it has been a long time, so the memory gets a little fussy sometimes.