Message from Chris in the Keys

[Danny]

Ed and others here will be interested in this. Chris Dunne contacted me from the Keys with some information about the DTV on channel 3. He said the DTV only reads about 33% on the Zenith signal bar. I think he said he is 40 miles from the channel 3. He says the channel 8 DTV is a lot stronger, in spite of a Cuban ATV being on that channel.

He has also seen some very interesting Es from Central America.

[NN2E]

Thanks, Chris & Danny.
Guess I'll keep looking for WSBS DT3 then.
Now, if only we'd get some E-skip in this area. Other DXers have reported east coast and gulf coast E-skip but I've seen almost nothing, here. Had about five minutes worth of SS ch2 analog E-S (probably XHY) at noon today but that's it.
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[cd637299]

I'm back home now.

Thanx Danny for putting this up.

Ed, if you catch WSBS-DT 3 at all, you belong in the record books. I will say, that the FL Keys being 99.96%-or-so cable, having WSBS upgrade couldn't be a priority. In fact, if both WSBS & WGEN-DT 8 sign off their OTA, I'd be the only one reporting it!

cd

[NN2E]

Thanks for taking a look, Chris.
I just haven't had propagation to the Keys yet this year. Others have and still haven't seen WSBS. From what you say and, what the FCC info shows, it's a puny one. I have seen WEDY DT6 and it's only shown to be 400 watts so, WSBS at 1 KW still should be DXable. We'll just have to wait 'til the E-skip really gets going (and hope Cuba doesn't cover it up) to see if it'll make the trip.
FWIW... the only reason I can see for WSBS going to 45 KW would be just to pee on Fidel's shoes. I'll bet there are a few converter boxes in Cuba, though.
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[LMolineux]

Thanks for taking a look, Chris.
I just haven't had propagation to the Keys yet this year. Others have and still haven't seen WSBS. From what you say and, what the FCC info shows, it's a puny one. I have seen WEDY DT6 and it's only shown to be 400 watts so, WSBS at 1 KW still should be DXable. We'll just have to wait 'til the E-skip really gets going (and hope Cuba doesn't cover it up) to see if it'll make the trip.
FWIW... the only reason I can see for WSBS going to 45 KW would be just to pee on Fidel's shoes. I'll bet there are a few converter boxes in Cuba, though.
73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

Are they contemplating on going up from 1KW to 45KW? If so that surely could be DX'able from trop and even good E-Skip even to me in SE PA.

[cd637299]

That's what is being debated here. They have the authority to do so, but like I said, it may be kinda pointless, even being OTA at all, with such cable penetration.

cd

[LMolineux]

That's what is being debated here. They have the authority to do so, but like I said, it may be kinda pointless, even being OTA at all, with such cable penetration.

cd
So CD they are already allowed to go up to 45KW already or no?

[cd637299]

According to Doug & FCC, I believe so

www.fcc.gov/mb (look for TV Query & type WSBS)

[LMolineux]

According to Doug & FCC, I believe so

www.fcc.gov/mb (look for TV Query & type WSBS)

Humm so maybe they are just getting underway on the increase?

[w9wi]

Humm so maybe they are just getting underway on the increase?

They applied for the power increase on June 20, 2008; it was approved on August 20th of that year. The permit is valid for three years, until June 20th of next year.

If they complete construction they can begin equipment tests at any time, and program tests upon notifying the FCC of their intent to do so. (which won't show up on fcc.gov or my website)

[LMolineux]

They applied for the power increase on June 20, 2008; it was approved on August 20th of that year. The permit is valid for three years, until June 20th of next year.

If they complete construction they can begin equipment tests at any time, and program tests upon notifying the FCC of their intent to do so. (which won't show up on fcc.gov or my website)

So how will any of us know or will it just become known just on the FCC site?

[cd637299]

Occasionally, Habana Radio 106.9 will come in here, as will the lower Keys on FM. When it does, I'll check the DTV from time to time.

As it stands right now, I have not seen 3 OR 8 from here, except the yellow bar on 8 trying to make it---I don't think it got above 30% from here thus far.

However, I would think that at full power (45kW), ch 3 would show a marked improvement from here.

I already wrote WSBS asking about the increase in power, but got no answer so far. (They probably have read my comments about hoping they never bump the power!)

cd

[Jim Thomas]

Occasionally, Habana Radio 106.9 will come in here, as will the lower Keys on FM. When it does, I'll check the DTV from time to time.

As it stands right now, I have not seen 3 OR 8 from here, except the yellow bar on 8 trying to make it---I don't think it got above 30% from here thus far.

However, I would think that at full power (45kW), ch 3 would show a marked improvement from here.

I already wrote WSBS asking about the increase in power, but got no answer so far. (They probably have read my comments about hoping they never bump the power!)
cd


WSBS-TV was recently acquired by Spanish Broadcasting System, based in Miami. SBS is one of the largest Hispanic radio networks in the US. With the recent purchase of WSBS and WSJU-TV San Juan, PR, SBS is positioning themselves to build a national Spanish television network. Their branding for the two stations is Mega TV.

http://mega.tv/

Due to the size of this broadcast organization, I am guessing it might be some time before you hear from anyone, Chris.

I called their switchboard number and after briefly speaking to the operator in SS, I convinced her to speak in English. I explained the reason for my call and the inquiry about WSBS-TV. She eluded to the fact that WSBS is going to increase their power, but she said, "You need to talk to someone qualified to answer that question." She put me on hold, then when it rang through, I got a voicemail. I left a detailed message. Let's see if I get a callback. :(

[cd637299]

Thanks for the assistance....I will tell you now, that it's been known as Mega TV for a few years now, easily available on cable + DT 50 here.

If Mega wants to compete with the big guns, they will need to stop the incessant infomercials....but no, I won't hold my breath on it.

I recall talking to a guy who worked for the former owner of what is now WGEN DT 8, when 8 was analog about 12 years ago. I asked him if they would increase their power (because they had authority I believe), and he nonchalantly said to me, "We don't wanna broadcast to the fish."

cd

[Jim Thomas]

I was searching for this website, which you may already have....

http://www.spanishbroadcasting.com/megatv.html

I guess we will just have to wait and see. My history with contacting personnel in television is not very good. IF I actually get through to the person qualified to talk to me, I am shocked.

[indysteve]

Thanks guys for attempting to find out about the potential power increase for WSBS. I mentioned this topic on 4/22/10 over at the WTFDA member's email site with no response. If it goes through with this power increase to 45 kW, it should definitely become a major Es target for a number of DXers.

On the same day, I was curious about KOTA's CP to increase power from 7.1 kW to 18.2 kW. Since this station is frequently received by a number of DXers during the Es season, I thought it would be of interest. I sent an email to the CE at KOTA and received this reply within a few hours................


Steve,
We have been looking at a number of possible improvements. We applied for the CP just in case. The CP will be good for three years, but we do not yet have a timeline for any changes.
Cost, practicality and effectiveness are all issues we are considering.
-- Daniel Black
Duhamel Broadcasting Ent.
518 St. Joseph St.
Rapid City, SD 57701

[mp11]

I just noticed Google Earth show WSBS as having ERP of 45Kw. From there it links to the FCC database which shows WSBS licensed as ERP 1Kw. But then you look farther down the page where it shows construction permit. There you see ERP 45Kw. The link is HERE (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WSBS&list=0). If this is already known...my appologies. ;)

[Danny]

Ed and others here will be interested in this. Chris Dunne contacted me from the Keys with some information about the DTV on channel 3. He said the DTV only reads about 33% on the Zenith signal bar. I think he said he is 40 miles from the channel 3. He says the channel 8 DTV is a lot stronger, in spite of a Cuban ATV being on that channel.

He has also seen some very interesting Es from Central America.

After reading the posts on TV/FM Skip Log concerning WSBS-DT3, I thought this would be a good time to remind Ed and others...

[Octavio]

Hello Guys :
Im interest on investigating DX reception of DTV signals coming out from south FL .
I will install in the coming weeks my UHF antenna , pre-amp , and KWORLD stb , and try to get some catch from Ft Myers or Miami ( even when the season is not the best for DX )
However I have serious concers about UHF band congestion here in Havana , strong analog signals are present on ch 15 , 21 , 27 , 38 and 44 .
Will let you know about the results , and will send some pictures as well .
if interested contact me at octaviocouso@yahoo.es
Thanks
** What about DTV channels 3 and 8 in Key West , have they increased their Tx power recently ??

[Danny]

Welcome, Octavio.

Best wishes on the DTV. Keep us informed about your results.

[w9wi]

Hello Guys :
Im interest on investigating DX reception of DTV signals coming out from south FL .
I will install in the coming weeks my UHF antenna , pre-amp , and KWORLD stb , and try to get some catch from Ft Myers or Miami ( even when the season is not the best for DX )
However I have serious concers about UHF band congestion here in Havana , strong analog signals are present on ch 15 , 21 , 27 , 38 and 44 .
Will let you know about the results , and will send some pictures as well .
if interested contact me at octaviocouso@yahoo.es
Thanks
** What about DTV channels 3 and 8 in Key West , have they increased their Tx power recently ??

To my knowledge there are three digital stations operating in Key West:

Channel 3, at 1,000 watts, with a permit to increase to 45,000 watts.
Channel 8, at 7,000 watts
Channel 12, at 300 watts, supposedly relays channel 3.

I don't see any plans for channel 8 to increase power, and channel 12 cannot increase power. (300 watts is the maximum permitted for their class of license)

There are permits for new digital stations on channels 11, 32, 38, and 46; for analog channels 31, 36, and 49 to convert to digital on their existing channels; and for analog channel 27 to build a digital relay station on channel 50.

I don't think your local analog UHF stations will cause problems for digital DX unless you live VERY close to the transmitters.

[indysteve]

...........and channel 12 cannot increase power. (300 watts is the maximum permitted for their class of license)

Doug, I used to think that too, but apparently the FCC rules are just waiting to be broken or changed. WOCK-CD (RF ch. 4), Chicago, is currently operating at 810 watts (STA) instead of 300 watts. Could this be the start of a new trend for CDs and LDs on VHF or am I missing something?
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WOCK

Steve

[NN2E]

The DTV box spent several hundred hours, last Summer, looking for WSBS with nothing to show for it. I suspect this is part of the problem....

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?frame=Y&temp=69987&rotate=75.00&p0=1.000&p10=0.940&p20=0.835&p30=0.655&p40=0.460&p50=0.295&p60=0.105&p70=0.035&p80=0.025&p90=0.015&p100=0.010&p110=0.010&p120=0.010&p130=0.010&p140=0.015&p150=0.035&p160=0.043&p170=0.045&p180=0.047&p190=0.045&p200=0.043&p210=0.035&p220=0.015&p230=0.010&p240=0.010&p250=0.010&p260=0.010&p270=0.015&p280=0.025&p290=0.035&p300=0.105&p310=0.295&p320=0.460&p330=0.655&p340=0.835&p350=0.940&p360=1.000&

...As you can see from this antenna pattern plot, most of the WSBS signal is aimed east-northeast, back towards the rest of the Keys. It looks like DXers in west Africa would have a better shot at receiving WSBS than anyone here in the States.

73, Ed NN2E
Owner / Operator - Murphy's Law Test Site & Thunderstorm Proving Grounds

[cd637299]

Merry Christmas to all & "Feliz Navidad" to Octavio.

As far as the WSBS-3 pattern, Veterans Park is right in the lobe, as it should be, to cover as much of the Florida Keys as possible.....however I have yet to see more than the 30% signal bar, so no picture.

A guide for Octavio:

Try for the following DTV's, on decent Tropo days---

3-WSBS Key West (shown on screen as "MegaTV", Spanish) - still weak
7-WSVN Miami (shown on screen as "7") or WFLA Tampa ("8")
8-WGEN Key West ("gentv 8", Spanish) - weak
9-WINK Fort Myers ("WINK")
10-WPLG Miami ("Local 10") or WTSP-St. Petersburg ("Tampa Bay's 10")
12-WPTV West Palm Beach ("5") or WTVT Tampa ("Fox 13") ---had to use Doug's site w9wi.com for WTVT info
13-WPEC West Palm Beach ("12")
15-WBBH Ft. Myers ("2") (good chance if CE2 signs off)
18-WPBT Miami ("2")
19-WSFL Miami ("S-FL")
20-WLRN Miami ("WLRN")
22-WFOR Miami ("4")
23-WLTV Miami ("U23", Spanish)
27-WXEL West Palm Beach ("X") (after Canal Habana signs off)
28-WFLX West Palm Beach ("29")
29-WFTS Tampa ("ABC" or "ABC Action News")
30-WSCV Ft Lauderdale ("T" for Telemundo, Spanish)
31-WTVJ Miami ("6")
32-WBFS Miami (no logo bug during shows, but "33" before shows)
33-WRXY Tice/Ft. Myers
35-WPXM Miami ("ion") or WFTX Ft. Myers ("4" or "Fox 4")
36-WPXP Lake Worth ("ion")
40-WBEC Boca Raton (no logo bug, but "Becon TV" before shows)
41-WZVN Naples ("7")
42-WXPX Bradenton ("ion") ---needed w9wi.com for call letters
44-WTOG St. Petersburg ("cw 44")
45-WXCW Naples ("6")
46-WHFT Miami (TBN logo, see www.tbn.org )
47-WAMI Miami (Telefutura logo, triangle in triangle, Spanish)

iOjala que esta es alguna ayuda para Ud.!

cd

[pjdyer]

A few of those FL 1000+ milers there I caught via tropo on NTSC
http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/UHFTVDX.htm (+Miami 2,4,6,7,10; WINK-11)
and sure would like to on DTV :)

73, Pat - WA5IYX

[Octavio]

Hello Chris and other guys : Thanks and Merry Xmas !! . I started the re-installation last Saturday but was impossible to finish , will try next week now weather is pretty bad due to the weekend´s cold front .
Thanks to the list provided by CD , im a newcomer on the DTV dx but a ¨veteran¨ :) Dxer fom the analog days , since I was 12 ( now I´m 41 ) i´ve been involved on this .
I expect better results from signals coming from Ft Myers , in the past chnls like 20 ( WBBH-NBC ) , 26 ( WZVN-ABC ) and 36 ( WFTX-FOX ) were easy to catch here . With a good antenna-preamp combination and site location , their analog signals were decently ( I mean , stable pictures , minor noise and color ) present almost 60-70% of the year .
Now I know that most stations have changed its Tx power and radiation patterns , and their carrier frequencies .
Lets see what happens ...

[Octavio]

Hello Doug :
I don't think your local analog UHF stations will cause problems for digital DX unless you live VERY close to the transmitters ... I dont live near to any transmitter ( the nearest is at 6 miles ) . Do you mean that same channel interference between ATV -DTV signals is not a problem , even when the local signal is amplified ??

[Russ-PA]

Octavio - it wouldn't be accurate to predict digital TV reception based on the prior analogs, partly owing to many stations on higher frequencies and secondly on account of reduced power levels.

DTV reception will usually be less than the prior analog reception if the antennas are equal. As a result of the conversion, I've lost many stations which were regulars in analog.

[w9wi]

Hello Doug :
I don't think your local analog UHF stations will cause problems for digital DX unless you live VERY close to the transmitters ... I dont live near to any transmitter ( the nearest is at 6 miles ) . Do you mean that same channel interference between ATV -DTV signals is not a problem , even when the local signal is amplified ??

Oh, no, *same-channel* interference between ATV and DTV will be a problem, whether the local signal is amplified or not. For example, I think you will not be able to receive WBBH while your local station on channel 15 is broadcasting.

I do think 6 miles is close to the transmitter. If that transmitter is UHF it may cause some problems, especially if that transmitter is between you and the other stations you're trying to receive. (you have to point your antenna at that transmitter to receive other stations) I would be careful about using an amplifier, it may make that signal too strong and cause interference on other channels.

In analog, when signals were too strong, you could still see the picture. It would be "washed out" (like an old, faded advertising sign..) but you could usually still identify the station. In digital, if this happens, you will probably receive nothing at all.

If the nearby transmitter is VHF it may not cause much trouble for UHF reception.

[cd637299]

Octavio---

Indeed, as long as the channels are the same, whether DTV or ATV, there will be interference.

I refer you to this page---this is my catch of KCWX DT5 in Texas about 6 months ago. Notice, the picture does not "fade in and out" like analog, but it "pixellates" (a block-like reception----either you get a sharp picture or none at all---you will see how sharp it is in some areas).

http://www.youtube.com/cd637299#p/a/u/2/wBy37T9dUMA

cd

[Octavio]

Octavio---

Indeed, as long as the channels are the same, whether DTV or ATV, there will be interference.

I refer you to this page---this is my catch of KCWX DT5 in Texas about 6 months ago. Notice, the picture does not "fade in and out" like analog, but it "pixellates" (a block-like reception----either you get a sharp picture or none at all---you will see how sharp it is in some areas).

http://www.youtube.com/cd637299#p/a/u/2/wBy37T9dUMA

cd .

Hello guys , in fact the transmitter site is at the back of my antenna ( so is not the worst case scenario ) . I will install a flat reflector Yagui , which i think has a decent front to back ratio.
My preamp has a built in attenuator also , so I will be able to reduce its gain if necessary.
Last spring , without pre-amp , i got a dozen digital stations from Ft Myers and Tampa .
I noted also an interesting effect on local UHF analog channels , specially in those distant from my home . Under good tropo conditions the effect of ATSC interference causes an effect of ¨ noisy signal ¨ to local ntsc channels .
The higher the level of interfering ATSC signals the stronger the noise at local NTSC stations .
Keep in touch

[cd637299]

So, you have already seen DTV....okay then! I wasn't sure.....

If you got Tampa, then try Orlando/Daytona/Lakeland---

11 WESH Daytona Beach ("2")
17 WKCF Clermont ("18")
24? WMFE Orlando (PBS)---I have not seen this yet
26 WKMG Orlando ("6")
27? WRDQ Orlando ("27")---not seen by me
32? WMOR Lakeland---not seen by me
33 WDSC New Smyrna Beach ("15", PBS)
35 WOFL Orlando ("35", Fox 35)
40? WACX Leesburg ("55", Christian---not seen here)
41 WVEN Daytona (Spanish---Univision?)
43 W--- Melbourne (not seen here)
46 WTGL Leesburg (Good Life "45", Christian---not seen here)
48 WOPX Melbourne ("ion"--not seen here)

I am sure there are others that are missing or some incorrect stuff here. I cannot make changes right now.

cd

[Stanislav]

So, you have already seen DTV....okay then! I wasn't sure.....

If you got Tampa, then try Orlando/Daytona/Lakeland---

11 WESH Daytona Beach ("2")
17 WKCF Clermont ("18")
24? WMFE Orlando (PBS)---I have not seen this yet
26 WKMG Orlando ("6")
27? WRDQ Orlando ("27")---not seen by me
32? WMOR Lakeland---not seen by me
33 WDSC New Smyrna Beach ("15", PBS)
35 WOFL Orlando ("35", Fox 35)
40? WACX Leesburg ("55", Christian---not seen here)
41 WVEN Daytona (Spanish---Univision?)
43 W--- Melbourne (not seen here)
46 WTGL Leesburg (Good Life "45", Christian---not seen here)
48 WOPX Melbourne ("ion"--not seen here)

I am sure there are others that are missing or some incorrect stuff here. I cannot make changes right now.

cd

Corrections and additions:

WMFE is RF ch. 23, virtual ch. 24.
WVEN is RF ch. 49, virtual ch. 26.
WVEN is RF ch. 22, virtual ch. 35.
43 Melbourne calls are WOTF.

Add:

39 WFTV Orlando ("9")
51 WHLV Cocoa ("52," TBN, Christian)

[pjdyer]

That's why I only store the locals on the DTT901 whose real (RF) Ch is the same as their virtual (9, 10, 12, 26, 41) - to avoid that sort of regrabbing from DX items :) It means having to directly enter the RF Ch of the others anytime that I want them (5, 16, 18, 30, 32, 38, 39, 48). For DXing tropo I usually just use the menu to step thru 7-51. For major Es events sometimes continually rapidly checking thru 2,3,4,6 and back can get hectic/tiring all for maybe just a fleeting decode. (Being able to hear the DTV pilots for 2-4 helps concentrate the choice somewhat.)

And, yes, DTV can "snow" your local ATVs. I learned that a few years back with KCWX-2, at first thinking that my antenna and then (after seeing it on two systems) they were at fault - until I saw it match the 54.310 DTV pilot on my FT-847! I saw Es do that to our local NTSC 4 and 5 as well (tho rarely).

73, Pat - WA5IYX

[Octavio]

So, you have already seen DTV....okay then! I wasn't sure.....

If you got Tampa, then try Orlando/Daytona/Lakeland---

11 WESH Daytona Beach ("2")
17 WKCF Clermont ("18")
24? WMFE Orlando (PBS)---I have not seen this yet
26 WKMG Orlando ("6")
27? WRDQ Orlando ("27")---not seen by me
32? WMOR Lakeland---not seen by me
33 WDSC New Smyrna Beach ("15", PBS)
35 WOFL Orlando ("35", Fox 35)
40? WACX Leesburg ("55", Christian---not seen here)
41 WVEN Daytona (Spanish---Univision?)
43 W--- Melbourne (not seen here)
46 WTGL Leesburg (Good Life "45", Christian---not seen here)
48 WOPX Melbourne ("ion"--not seen here)

I am sure there are others that are missing or some incorrect stuff here. I cannot make changes right now.

cd

Hello guys: tests from Havana ... poor results after the re-installation of antenna . Only signals at 10-40% ( without decoding ) at channels 19,23, 30 , 35 , 47 .. will try to check with amplification soon .
:mad: Yesterday´s Hepburn maps raised my optimism , but nothing came out :mad:

[cd637299]

Octavio, all the channels that you mentioned are Miami stations, unless maybe Key West has low power stations.

Those maps can be tricky....I got your 91.7 from home (no ID, but it had to be them) at a time when the maps did not seem to forecast it.....on the other hand, I've seen promising maps and I think I was disappointed.

However, the path between the Keys and Havana was apple-red on the map that last weekend in July 2009, and I could not handle all the DX!

cd

[Octavio]

Octavio, all the channels that you mentioned are Miami stations, unless maybe Key West has low power stations.

Those maps can be tricky....I got your 91.7 from home (no ID, but it had to be them) at a time when the maps did not seem to forecast it.....on the other hand, I've seen promising maps and I think I was disappointed.

However, the path between the Keys and Havana was apple-red on the map that last weekend in July 2009, and I could not handle all the DX!

cd

Hi Chris : see the thread I just posted , i got 31 stations this morning . I agree w you, maps are tricky . This tropo ocurred after the cold front , not before ( when the front is approaching north Fla ) as I was expecting and as usually happens .

Keep in touch

[w9wi]

WSBS holds a construction permit to increase power to 45kw. No other changes are proposed. (same transmission site and antenna height)
They could implement the increase at any time under "program test authority"; indeed, it could possibly be on the air right now. (although I suspect Chris would know if that were the case)

[Octavio]

WSBS holds a construction permit to increase power to 45kw. No other changes are proposed. (same transmission site and antenna height)
They could implement the increase at any time under "program test authority"; indeed, it could possibly be on the air right now. (although I suspect Chris would know if that were the case)

Hi Doug and Chris :
If WSBS goes to 45 kW , they will be catched easily here . However that would be a waste of power and $ , they dont need that power level to cover their small service area .

[cd637299]

I can't say. My TV antenna at home is still dismantled (it might go up this weekend), and I have not been to the Keys since August 2010.....not to mention that I only had one decent Tropo opening to the Keys here in the last 2 months.

cd

[pjdyer]

Some of my better Fla tropo from here has occurred after a (not strong) cold front has gone thru and then stalled east-west across the Gulf. It almost seemed like ducts were being shed off its north edge and then drifting north (cyclic reception of Ft. Myers-Tampa with periods of an hour or two).

73, Pat - WA5IYX